Welcome to "Sunday Deep Cuts." This material is different from our Thursday UNFILTERED articles. Due to the demand for more content, we are featuring this additional material on Sundays. Enjoy!
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Today’s Deep Cuts is different from normal. It’s not going to be a hot article that’s been in the vault for many years and you’ve never seen before. Instead, it’s an interview I recently conducted.
I had a conversation with Mike Donio, a Christian who is also a scientist. In our discussion, Mike explores how faith and science intersect in his own personal journey with Christ.
Our discussion tackled some profound questions, and I found Mike's responses both insightful and affirming. His perspectives resonated with conclusions I myself have reached, which made the exchange personally meaningful.
I hope you find value in the interview. My questions are in bold, followed by Mike’s answers.
Tell us about your journey as a scientist and what specific expertise you have in the sciences (e.g., biology, physics, astronomy, etc.).
Thanks Frank. My journey as a scientist has been somewhat unconventional. After completing a Bachelor's Degree in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology I went to work at an academic lab doing HIV research.
From there, I went into the pharmaceutical industry. Following a brief stay at a contract research organization, I went to a clinical-stage biotech company developing antibodies to treat cancer and became a senior scientist.
That came to an end during Covid and since then I’ve been working on carving out a new path.
My expertise is largely in biology but that comprises a lot so I’ll try to narrow it down a little bit. The major disciplines where I’ve studied and which I consider to be within my lane are virology, electrophysiology, immunology and oncology.
Explain how science has set up a limited way to test and discover truth. That is, unless it can be empirically verified, it’s not real and doesn’t exist – so says the scientific method.
What you say here is all too true. Science has a way of only saying that things are real and exist if they can be empirically tested and verified.
Throughout my career I came to realize that there were a lot of assumptions in science and the only way to know if something was true was to test it in a formal experiment, i.e., empirically. In other words, if you couldn’t test it then there was no way to know if it was real.
I think you have to be very careful with that as it is clearly limited.
This is because empirical testing only deals with what we can physically see, hear, touch, or otherwise measure with technology. It does not account for that which cannot be seen and as such science would say is not real.
Since most scientists today are atheists, or agnostics, how do you rectify your Christian faith as a scientist?
This is a great question. I have encountered something like this for as long as I’ve been a scientist. A lot of people don’t understand how someone can be a scientist and also hold Christian faith.
I think this probably stems somewhat from your previous question and how science is set up.
Most people would probably say, “If science has constructed such a limited means of discovering truth which relies on physical testing how can a scientist believe anything that is unseen?”
My answer would be that I don’t think the two are in conflict. We don’t usually do well with holding multiple opposing viewpoints simultaneously but it's certainly possible.
One can assert scientific findings on the basis of how science specifies truth while at the same time accept by faith the things we cannot see because we trust in the Lord.
I will also say that the more I’ve learned through science, specifically about the human body, the more I’ve become convinced of my faith.
So, in a way it’s possible to have one inform the other depending on how we look at it. Science after all is the study of God’s creation.
Related to the above question: argue why empiricism isn’t the only path to discovering truth and reality.
Empiricism is the theory that all knowledge is derived from sense-experience. In other words, if we can see, touch, feel, or otherwise measure it then it's not real.
However, as I said earlier, it is limited because there is a whole world that we cannot see.
Let’s take for example the unseen microscopic world. If we only trusted what we could see with our naked eyes then we’d completely miss out on this very tiny world that is all amongst us.
Only because we ventured to go beyond the limits of our eyesight can we now see and explore that world. At one time, it wasn’t possible and the very mention of it would have drawn the ire of some people.
However, there were reasons to believe there was more than could be seen so some people probed deeper and were rewarded. The point is that they had no idea what awaited them or whether there was anything there at all.
If they would have stuck with only what they could have empirically tested at that time they would have missed out. I think the same is true here.
Anytime we limit the discovery of truth and reality to sense-experience we are likely missing out on a vast unseen world as in the Spiritual.
Can science honor God, and if so, how?
I think it is all too easy to think that science and God are at odds with each other but that is not so.
After all, science is the study of God’s creation.
If what we learn ultimately points back to and draws us closer to Christ then that would certainly be honoring Him.
When does science go too far and try to play God?
At various times throughout history science has gone too far and tried to play God. It has even tried to supersede Him.
Even now many people consider science to be the only source of knowledge and truth about our reality and as such they’ve marginalized everything else, even God, to the fringe.
I think that any time science tries to do what only God can that it crosses a line.
How does the scientific study of God’s creation reveal and glorify Him?
All of creation reveals God’s nature. The creation is His handiwork and His masterpiece. It’s even His self-portrait.
As such, all that we see in the physical world is an image or faint reflection of the real thing. This is completely backed up by scripture.
“The heavens proclaim the glory of God. The skies display His craftsmanship.” - Psalm 19:1 NLT
“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power, and divine nature have clearly been seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” - Romans 1:20 NASB
In addition to those verses, I love the way T. Austin-Sparks puts it in the quote below.
“This truth is that the natural, the material, and the organic creation is intended to embody and represent a vast counterpart of intangible thought and principles. In a word, the created universe is a vast symbolism.” - T. Austin-Sparks, from Horizoned by Life
Science is the means by which we learn and gain insight into the natural world. If what we see in the physical are truly parables or reflections of the reality in the spiritual then I believe we can use science as a tool to reveal God and His purpose in His creation.
If our focus is on Jesus Christ then the more focused we are on the creation the deeper we will be led into Him.
We just have to remember to stay focused on the Creator and not the creation. The one must point us to the other and end there.
Throughout the Bible the physical is shown as a metaphor or parable of the spiritual. Discuss some ways in which scientific knowledge of the human body and nature help to reveal spiritual truths?
The human body and other aspects of nature are indeed parables of spiritual truths.
Again, I think another quote from Austin-Sparks captures this best.
“This being true, we must carry the truth in the realm of life, and see that natural life - as it came from God - as the part of which spiritual or Divine life is the counterpart. What is true of human life is a representation of something much higher - Divine life.” - T. Austin-Sparks, from Horizoned by Life
Through science we learn about the organization and function of the human body. Its complexity is truly mind boggling.
There are two elements of the human body that I think particularly reflect the spiritual, how it is organized and how it is maintained.
The human body is made up of a diverse collection of very highly specialized cell types. Every tissue and organ are made up of unique cells.
Yet, they are built up together and function as one. It’s spectacular to consider.
Even more so is the fact that they all manage to work together despite their uniqueness.
You could say that they lay down their individuality or individual lives for the better of the body.
If they go rogue and start acting on their own interests then we have big problems.
So, what keeps them in line? How does the body orchestrate the process?
It all starts at the head. Within the head are glands that produce hormones which trigger various processes throughout the body. There is one in particular that is sort of a master controller of many of the other glands throughout the body’s endocrine system.
Now, just think about that for a minute remembering that the spiritual body is made up of many unique members functioning as one as led by the head, Jesus.
I could go on for a while longer with this question but seeing as it's already long I’ll stop here. Suffice it to say, we are quite the parable.
Please define and contrast the following words, making it simple so a 10-year old could understand them and give an example of each:
-Space
Space is all the empty area around us where things can exist or move. It’s like the room you have to run around or put stuff in. It’s not a thing you can touch.
For example, the space in your bedroom is the area where you can put your bed, dresser, etc.
-Time
Time is how we measure when things happen, like a clock ticking from one moment to the next. It’s what tells us if something is now, before, or later.
Time is about when things happen, like knowing it’s time for school or bedtime. You can’t see or touch time, but you feel it passing.
For example, the time it takes to eat breakfast might be 10 minutes, from when you start eating to when you finish.
-Matter
Matter is anything that takes up space and has weight. It’s the stuff things are made of, like solids, liquids, or gases.
Matter is the actual stuff that fills space, like water, or even the air you breathe. Unlike space or time, you can touch or see matter.
A soccer ball is made of matter because it’s a solid thing you can kick and it takes up space.
To summarize, you can think of it as space being the where, time being the when and matter being the what.
Physicists like John Wheeler argued that time, space, and matter are so interconnected that removing any component dissolves the others. Without matter to create events and without space to provide relationships, time becomes undefined. Therefore, if you removed all matter and space, time would cease to exist. Consequently, before God said “Let” and created, there was no time (timelessness or eternity past). What is your personal understanding of this issue?
Before I answer this question, which is great by the way, I want to be clear about something. I’m a big proponent of staying in your lane. For example, if you have experience in art history you shouldn’t opine regarding rocket science as if you are an expert.
There are vast oceans between different scientific disciplines and oftentimes scientists are over specialized. As I indicated in the first question, my experience is in biology and not physics.
Therefore, I likely cannot offer as nuanced an answer as a seasoned physicist but, I’m happy to offer my personal opinion for whatever it’s worth.
If matter exists in space and time represents when things happen, then surely they are all interrelated. Time is a relationship between matter and space. For example, how long something or someone takes to go a certain distance within a space.
However, if you were to remove all matter and space then time would be irrelevant thus it would no longer exist. Anything that is not bound by space and has no matter cannot exist in any construct of time.
I think this relates perfectly to the timeless eternity past where there was no creation (space or matter), therefore, there could be no time.
We can take this a step further and since God is infinite and Spirit (occupies all space at once and has no matter) then He is timeless.
This is why He calls Himself “I AM”. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
When He said “Let” and the creation began then space and matter came into existence, with that came time.
Why does it matter or not matter how old both the earth and the universe are? In other words, what bearing does this question have on the truth of Jesus Christ and His claims as Lord and Savior and Messiah?
This is a great question because many people, when they think of science and Christianity think of debates about Creation vs. Evolution or the age of the earth. I’m really not interested in those things.
I’ll give your readers a minute to pick their jaws up off the ground. Yes, there is a scientist who is also a serious follower of the Lord Jesus Christ who wants nothing to do with these arguments.
The question of the age of the earth has no bearing on the truth of Jesus Christ and His claims as Lord and Savior and Messiah because He is eternal and exists outside of the creation.
In fact, the whole Christian life is bound up in Jesus Christ, not the age of the earth. It doesn’t really matter one iota how old it is.
There is nothing about the age of the earth that changes the fact that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior.
Regardless of whether it’s old or new, it has no effect on who Jesus is or what He is doing.
In Colossians 1, Paul of Tarsus tells us that everything was created by, for, and through Jesus Christ and that He holds it all together. If that’s true, and I believe it to be, then He is preeminent and greater than the creation thus its age is of no consequence.
Karl Popper argued that for a theory to be genuinely scientific, it must be falsifiable - meaning there must be some conceivable observation or experiment that could potentially prove it wrong. Therefore, if a statement is constructed in such a way that no possible evidence could contradict it, then it falls outside the realm of empirical science. How does this relate to testing if God exists or not and what is your view of Popper’s idea as a whole?
As God is invisible (Spirit) and occupies no space (infinite) there is no empirical way to test whether or not He exists.
According to Popper, it couldn’t be done in a scientific manner since one can’t construct an experiment to test it, nor can they observe Him.
Therefore any claim made about God is flexible and cannot be falsified.
This is in contrast to scientific theories. For example, I can empirically test gravity by dropping something from a specific height and seeing if it falls and if so, how fast.
If my object didn’t fall then the theory would be said to have been disproven. But God’s existence doesn’t allow for such an exact test.
I think overall Popper’s idea keeps science clear as falsifiability helps separate science from beliefs or untestable ideas. It encourages testing by pushing scientists to design experiments that challenge their ideas.
However, it does have limitations as in the case of proving God’s existence. It doesn’t address beliefs but rather only says that science cannot answer them.
This leaves the question of God to one of faith.
List some insights that you’ve gained about God through scientific study.
God is love. No one who created this world could not but love that which He created. The creation is stunningly beautiful. If it is just a pale reflection of Jesus Christ then that says a great deal about His beauty.
God has a clear purpose and design in the creation. The more I learn about God’s creation the more it becomes clear that not only didn’t it happen by accident but it was well planned for a specific purpose.
As I’ve learned about the complexity and diversity of the various parts and systems of the human body I have come to appreciate the intention and thought that God put into the design of His most important creatures. That the human body and its organization is a parable of the spiritual, the body of Christ, is mindblowing.
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